Orchard People | Multi-Fruit Trees with Javier Rivera

Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio

Show here on Reality Radio 1 0 1.

In this radio show and podcast, we

learn about fruit trees, permaculture,

arboriculture, and so much more.

So if you love trees and especially

fruit trees, or if you’re interested

in living a more sustainable life,

then this is the place for you.

I’m your host, Susan Poizner

of the Fruit Tree Care training

website, orchard people.com.

Thanks for tuning in.

And enjoy the show.

Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio

Show with your host Susan Poizner.

To contact Susan Live right now, send

her an email in studio101@gbe.com,

and now right to your host of the Urban

Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.

Hi everyone.

When I started to grow fruit trees, I

had no clue that each and every fruit

tree was made up of two separate trees.

The roots come from one tree and

they determine the size of the tree

when it’s mature, and the upper

part of the tree is called the fruit

wood and it determines the type of

fruit that you are going to grow.

Now all you have to do is stick those

two parts together through a process

called grafting, and if it works, those

two trees fuse together just like magic.

What’s amazing is that grafting

lets you create trees with different

types of fruit, for instance, like

an apple tree with 10 different

types of apples growing on it.

Or you can make a fruit salad

tree that grows different types

of stone fruits on the same tree.

It’s also possible to use grafting to

create trees that can survive and grow in

places that you wouldn’t expect them to.

Like growing apple trees in

parts of Florida, who knows?

Maybe one day we can use grafting

to create more resilient fruit trees

that can cope with a changing climate.

So today we are going to talk about the

potential of grafting with Javier Rivera.

For Javier grafting is a passion.

He’s the owner of the Stone River

Fruit Tree nursery in central Florida.

And Javier is also pursuing his

PhD in Horticultural sciences

at the University of Florida.

And I’ll talk to him in just a minute.

But first, I would love to hear from

you, send in your questions, your

comments, or just an email to say

hello, and we will enter you into

today’s contest to win a terrific prize.

This month’s prize is Color Point

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this month’s contest will be able

to choose the color of their choice.

So do you wanna win those hand pruners?

Then enter today’s contest by sending an

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That’s in studio101@gmail.com.

And do remember to include your first

name and where you’re writing from.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

So now, Javier, welcome to the show today.

Thank you very much,

Susan, for inviting me.

It is wonderful to have you.

And in the introduction I mentioned

that we can, that you’re working

to graft apple trees that will

survive and thrive in Florida.

But tell me a little bit about

where you’re located in Florida.

What’s the plant hardiness zone and what

types of fruit will easily grow there?

Okay, so I live in the most southern

part of the city of Orlando in Orange

County in central Florida, and we are

classified as U S D A zone nine B.

So this area is famous for citrus.

A lot of people that come from different

parts of the Caribbean will also

incorporate plants like mangoes and

avocados, some tropicals that due to

our mild winters can actually grow very

well and produce fruit year after year.

Ah-huh.

So here you are in an area where

citrus grows nicely and you

are trying to grow apple trees.

Now apple trees, are there some

cultivars that will grow in your zone?

Oh, absolutely.

The information that is provided by

most agricultural extensions in our area

recommend a few cultivars such as Anna

and Dorsett Golden, maybe Ein Shimmer.

There’s a recent release by the

University of Florida with Texas NI

a and m that is called Tropic Suite.

That’s another one that

does well in our area.

And there are a few

others, but not very many.

And the main reason for that is because

part of that information tells us that

due to our mild winter climate, we don’t

get a lot of what’s known as chill hours.

And they are different models that

classify what a chill hour is.

But Simply speaking, the number of

hours before 45 degrees Fahrenheit that

occurred during the coldest months of

the year or during the later part of

the fall season into winter season.

So here in Orlando, at best, for

the past few years, we’ve gotten an

average of about a hundred to about

125 chill hours, which is very mild.

So cultivars that require many

more chill hours than that are not

even considered by most people.

Unless you want to do something different.

Okay.

Sorry, I’m just gonna

go back for a second.

You guys have, let’s say 150, you

said 150 chill hours, hundred 50 cold

days, and these apple trees need some

cold days in order to what, to produce

fruit in order to be consistent.

What is it about these cold chill hours

that allow you to grow apple trees?

Will the apple trees die if

they don’t get enough cold?

What is, what are the ramifications?

Yeah, so the main information that we

get is that if a tree does not receive

enough chill hours during the winter

season, it may not survive as it tries to

cope with the changes in the conditions.

During the daytime, whereas we go into

spring, it didn’t receive enough energy

for it to go ahead and blossom or produce

leaves at a certain time of the year.

However, one of the things that I have

discovered recently and ins inspired

by different people, folks like Tom

Spellman of Dave Wilson nursery out

in California, Kevin Houser of Kael

Creek Capital Nursery my spouse, who

is a Michigander and she has known

apples, for pretty much all of her life.

Why don’t we actually try to grow

certain apple varieties besides what we

know besides Deanna, the Dorson Golden.

Let’s go ahead and stick ’em at

the ground and see what happens.

And doing a little bit of research about

root stocks that would be able to survive

the conditions that we have in our area.

We have discovered that many

varieties that come from different

places all over the world.

We’re talking about France, we’re

talking about England, we’re talking

about the Northern United States.

They have been not only growing well,

but they have been producing fruit.

And I’m like, wait a minute, but

r and these apples from these

places, they get thousands of chill

hours, or they’re supposed to get

thousands of chill hours and they’re

growing here just fine with 150.

So what is really going on?

And of course there is

a method to the madness.

So there are cultural practices

that are applied in order to ensure

that the trees are managing with

that small number of chill hours.

One of the things that is done in,

not just by me but in different parts

of the world, in the tropics places

like Uganda, Rwanda, and Central

Africa, is that there’s a time of the

year when the trees get defoliated.

So by defoliating the trees.

You are sending a signal to the buds.

Don’t count cold hours in order to get

prepared for when you have to go and

wake up and produce leaves and balloons.

So we’re just gonna let you

like rest for a little bit.

And then when the next season comes

on, when winter is going away, days

are getting longer, temperatures

are getting warmer, those are gonna

be the signals you’re gonna pay

attention to and that’s what you’re

gonna use as your guide to awaken.

So interesting.

So I just wanna clarify.

You’re saying like how do you

communicate to the tree to say, Hey

tree, by the way, listen, don’t count

chill hours, just hang in there.

Listen to me.

How can you communicate to

the fruit tree to tell it?

I know you’re used to having lots of chill

hours, but don’t worry about this here.

We don’t need to offer that to you.

So it’s a process that, believe it or not,

doesn’t really begin in wintertime alone.

It starts getting ready in late summer.

So dormancy, those folks know, oh

yeah, that’s when it’s wintertime

and the trees are sleeping.

There’s actually different

stages to dormancy.

During the summertime.

You have the para dormancy in which

buds under a certain level of the

tree are basically not growing out.

So they’re not producing leaves.

They’re just like staying put.

And then when the temperatures are

getting colder, the trees enter into

a stage that’s known as endo dormancy.

The endo dormancy is the critical part

because once the trees get into that

stage, the bugs are gonna start counting

cold and they say, you know what?

I’m not gonna awaken until

I get the cold that I need.

So if we can skip that process,

if we are able to reprogram.

Those buds into don’t follow the

endo dormancy, you’re gonna be okay.

Then we can get them to produce even

if you have areas where there is not

enough winter chill according to the

information that we got as of today.

So we are trying to change the paradigm

on how these apples are grown simply

by doing those cultural practices that

allow us to let the trees manage in the

different climates, which they are grown.

That’s incredible.

Let’s just have a look here at an e.

We’ve got one email here from Greg.

Hello, Susan.

I was waiting for this show today.

Thanks.

Listening to you from

San Diego, California.

So thank you so much for rating in Greg.

Okay, so you, this is

what you’re working on.

How are you using grafting in

order to achieve the that goal?

Yes.

I was very fortunate to find

a series of rootstocks that

works well for me in my area.

And those are the rootstocks

from the Geneva series they

developed by Cornell and Dr.

Jim Cummins.

So I use the Polish three root stocks

of that series, which are Geneva 9 69,

Geneva two 10, and Geneva eight 90.

And of course, Geneva

eight 90 is my favorite.

Because they are able to tolerate the

excessive rains that we get during silver.

So when you plant a tree, you don’t

want a tree that will die when

it’s not able to be plant like.

It’s not able to drain

water away properly.

Of course, trees need to breathe.

So if you’re putting the roots

in an area that doesn’t drain

well the tree is gonna die.

And there are root stocks

that will absolutely.

Go and die if that’s the case.

But with the Geneva Series, they

are tolerant to water logging,

so that’s one big advantage.

Another one is that they

are disease resistant.

So there are many Pests and diseases

that will leave those trees alone

simply by the rootstock that

you’re grafting your trees onto.

So you’re not gonna have to worry

about Willy apple afis with the tallest

three trees of the Geneva Series.

You don’t have to worry about phyto for

root rod, so you don’t have to worry

about a colds spell That will come out

of nowhere and oh my God, it’s going

to die because it’s gonna get too cold.

No, no worries at all.

So it’s just a fantastic series of

rootstocks and for the most part, those

are the ones that, that I use for my

personal collection as well as for

part of the project that we’re doing

as part of my doctoral dissertation.

And then lastly, when you are planting

a tree, whether it’s from a seed or even

grafted in a seedling, there’s gonna

be a long wait time before that tree.

Passes the ity period and is able

to be reproductive competent.

But when you’re grafting it onto those

root stocks, the average turnaround

for fruit production is two to three

years, sometimes the very next year

after you graft them, depending

on the variety and the conditions

where the tree is growing it.

So for me, that is a time saver because if

I want to evaluate something, let me know,

graft it on a ceiling that’s gonna take

possibly eight to 10 years, let me graft

it here, and then you can get a quicker

response time and see how it manages.

So there are many advantages to

knowing what the root stock will do

in your area and which is the one

that’s right for your situation.

Which I think is interesting because

let’s say I, live in Florida and I order

my fruit tree from a big, Nat national

nursery and maybe I don’t even know

what rootstock they’ve planted it on.

So they send me any oil.

Maybe it’s a dwarfing

tree, so a smaller tree.

If I don’t know what the rootstock is,

it really may not thrive and it may

not produce fruit in that warm climate.

So that’s very interesting how

important it is to have control and to

know what rootstock you’re choosing.

On the other hand, from the

experimenting that you have done, does

it matter which cultivars you choose?

You said that possibly in Florida you

can grow cultivars that need hundreds of

chill hours rather than a hundred or 150.

Are there some cultivars that are

just stubborn and won’t go for it

and others that are more flexible?

Absolutely every cultivar will have

its own flexibility, so to speak.

So there are cultivars that

will be better adapted.

For example, we’re talking about Gold

Rush, which is a release from the P R I

program, and many people think it needs

800 to about a thousand chill hours.

It does very well here.

And many people tell me, what, here’s the

thing, you’re getting a Scion sent from

a nursery, and that Scion is dormant.

You’re gonna graft it, it’s gonna

wake up, it’ll give you fruit

that one year, and that’s it.

That was a fluke.

And it’s just okay, it’s possible.

But then what happens is the next year

comes about, and that same scion that you

grafted sprouts again and starts giving

you flowers and it can give you fruit.

So that’s not a fluke, that’s just that

the cultivar was able to become adapted.

To the conditions where it’s growing.

And it does that with the

motivation of the rootstock as well.

There, there are physiological situations

that are coming in play and, they, we

can definitely go down a rabbit hole

and talk about those, but because we

have limited time the idea is that the

rootstock is a propeller and then the

scion is going to have an adaptability

based on what that rootstock is doing

and how you’re doing the horticultural

practices to make sure that it thrives and

produces in the environment that it’s in.

Fantastic explanation

and you make it so clear.

I really appreciate that.

We have an email here from Tom.

Tom says, Susan, I love

the term chill hours.

My teenage son is here and he

heard this coming from your show

and he thought, Ooh, this is cool.

I can chill out and not do any work wrong.

I live in Dallas, Texas,

so yeah, chilling.

The chill hours, yeah, I guess

the tree chills out a little bit.

It’s not doing a lot

but it’s very important.

Now you talk about the

horticultural practices.

So again, let’s say in my situation,

let’s say I lived in Florida and I think,

okay, I’m gonna graph myself a tree,

going to take those recommendations.

I know which root stocks to choose.

I am gonna choose the cultivar.

What are the fancy horticultural practices

that I then need to do in order to

encourage my tree to grow in a climate

that it wouldn’t ordinarily be growing in?

That’s an excellent question and it can

be a little bit complicated to address.

Now, folks that have been tinkering

with crops like apples for example,

they have discovered, as I mentioned a

little bit ago, that defoliation is a

process that will tell the tree, let’s

go ahead and override these signals

in which you require this amount of

coal to wake up and produce fruit.

So by doing that, the tree gets

redirected or reprogrammed to produce.

That’s one way.

Sometimes folks use water stress

in order to make the trees produce.

For example, if there’s a period of time

where the trees are not getting any water,

that will send a signal to the tree that,

Hey, I’m running low on these resources.

Better go ahead and produce

my fruits right now.

That’s something that happens as well

treatments with GI giin or GI acid,

that’s another way in which trees can

be triggered into fruit production.

So they are different ways and it,

there, there isn’t really like a

manual for every single variety.

So you have to discover

what works and what doesn’t.

Sometimes by trial and error, that’s

what researchers are constantly doing.

We’re trying as scientists to

figure out, Hey, we’re doing this.

What are gonna be the consequences?

What do we observe?

And based on that constant application

of scientific concepts, we are

able to determine what will be

useful for a particular location.

I wanna clarify, just when you

talk about defoliation, that is

the natural process of all the

nutrients coming out of the leaves.

The leaves go brown as those green

lovely nutrients go into the root system,

and then the leaves just fall off.

Is that what you are talking about?

Or are you talking about go pull

off the leaves from your trees

and it’ll give the tree a signal?

It can be in either way.

So sometimes the affiliation

happens by applying a chemical

and basically the trees are shaken

off and then the leaves fall.

Sometimes you can just go

ahead and do it manually.

So I’ll just go before a cold spell in

the latter part of the year, and I will go

ahead and manually defoliate my own trees.

And the reason I can do that

is because I grow my trees so I

can reach them from the ground.

So all of my trees are sometime probably

around Eight feet tall at most, so

I can reach them from the ground.

And even though Geneva eight 90 is

a rootstock that if you set it and

forget it, it’s gonna produce a tree

somewhere between 15 to 20 feet tall.

I can always control the size

of the tree myself by pruning.

So that’s one of the things that, as

someone who promotes the philosophy

of backyard or culture, we can

do that in order to make it more

manageable for the home garden.

Incredible.

Okay, so if you are actually going

to defoliate your tree and pull off

all those leaves, do you wanna make

sure that they are not green anymore?

Because if you’re pulling off green

leaves, you’re pulling off nutrition

that the tree actually needs to stash

away its roots over the colder season.

What’s interesting is that sometimes,

depending on the use of the nitrates that

are still found in the ground, it can be

later in the season or later in the year,

and the trees will not wanna change color.

They will stay, still, stay green.

We’ll still do it that way

just to make sure that we can

trigger the signal on the trees.

Gotcha.

Okay.

We’ve got an email from Tina.

Tina writes Susan Does Mr.

Rivera have a website?

Do you?

We currently don’t have a website,

but we do have a Facebook page.

For the small operation that we run,

that’s called Stone River Nursery.

So you can find that on Facebook and

you can also find those on Instagram.

So the Instagram page is a little

bit more active as of the time.

My spouse, who is my better half, is

the one that does all the updates, and

she takes videos of the fruits that

we are growing and make sure that we

can have chronological progression

of what’s happening in our yard.

And it’s incredible.

Sometimes when you see the pictures like

from one year ago to where we’re at right

now, the changes are just incredible.

And I am so happy that we are able

to put that in a perspective for

different people because if we are able

to do it, then so can everybody else.

So there’s nothing really

hard science that we’re doing.

We’re just applying some practices that

are scientifically based, but they’re also

common sense and everybody can get them

done if they know where to go and just

to follow the guidance on how to do it.

That’s great.

Okay.

Thank you for the question.

That was fantastic.

Now, I know another passion of

yours is creating multi fru trees.

So that’s about kicking

it up a notch here.

So here you are creating, using

grafting to create fruit trees that

can grow outside a climate zone that

you, that we think we can grow them.

I want to talk about fruit variety.

Trees.

Trees where you can grow, I don’t

know, apricots and plums and

cherries all on the same tree.

I’d love to do that after

the commercial break.

Can you hold on the

line just for a minute?

Absolutely Susan.

Okay, so that’s what we’re gonna do.

We are gonna dive into multi

fruit trees in just a minute.

But in the meantime, you are listening to

the Urban Forestry Radio Show and podcast,

brought to you by the Fruit Tree Care

training website, orchard people.com.

This is Reality Radio 1 0 1, and

I’m Susan Poizner, author of the

Fruit Tree Care Books, growing Urban

Orchards and Grow Fruit Trees Fast and

we’ll be back right after the break.

Hi, I’m Susan Poizner

from Orchard people.com.

And I’m Steph Roth from Silver

Creek Nursery in Ontario.

Join us for an interactive online workshop

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In this workshop, we’ll teach you how

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Welcome back to the Urban Forestry

Radio Show with your host Susan Poizner,

right here on Reality Radio 1 0 1.

To get on board right

now, send us an email.

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And now right back to your host of the

Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.

Hi, there you are listening to

the Urban Forestry Radio Show

and podcast brought to you by the

Fruit Tree Care Training website.

Orchard people.com.

This is Reality Radio 1 0 1, and

I’m your host, Susan Poisoner.

In the show, we’ve been talking about

the potential of fruit tree grafting,

and in the first part of the show we

talked about grafting apple trees that

can survive and thrive in Florida.

But one of the most exciting types of

grafting projects that we can do is

creating a fruit tree that can produce

multiple different kinds of fruits.

So for instance, on one tree you might

have peaches and apricots and plums

all growing together on a single tree.

So how do you do that?

We’ll find out with my guest today

have your Rivera owner of Stone River

Nursery in central Florida, who is

also pursuing his PhD in Horticultural

Sciences at the University of Florida.

And by the way, anyone can

learn to graph fruit trees.

You can learn how in my new online

course Fruit Tree Grafting for

Everyone, which you can find on

my website@orchardpeople.com.

But before we continue chatting

today, I want to hear from you.

If you’re listening to this show live,

why not enter today’s contest and you

can win this month’s amazing prize.

It is color by Color Point

bypass Pro pruners by dram.

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The winner of this month’s contest will be

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Send the email to intu 1 0 1

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Be sure to include your first name

and where you’re writing from.

So now back to Javier.

Are you still with me?

I’m still here with you.

That’s great.

Okay, so next let’s talk about

creating malf fruit trees with various

different types of fruit on one tree.

Can you tell me a story?

When did you start doing this stuff?

Wow.

So I guess my first experience

getting the idea of what it would be

like was back in 2 20 14 when I got

my very first orchard established.

And that time it was only stone fruits and

different types of stone fruit hybrids.

As time went on, and I noticed that even

though I got flowers from these different

trees, I noticed that many of those

flowers that were supposed to produce

because the trees were considered self

fruitful, really didn’t, and they needed

a pollination partner in order to produce.

Some of them, whether they’re considered

self fruitful or not, will always do

better when you have a pollinator, a

pollinating variety, a colonizer, and

I think, wait a minute some folks have.

Multiple varieties of

fruit in a single tree.

And they have the multi grafted ones or

the fruit cocktails or the fruit salads.

There’s different names for

them, so why can’t we do this?

And of course, one impediment is

whether the variety that you want to

put on the tree is patented or not.

So we wanna respect the industry.

We wanna make sure that we are not

propagating varieties that are patented

cuz otherwise that would be infringement.

And we wanna make sure that the

folks that spend the time developing

those varieties have the respect,

have the income for the royalties

that they get from those patents.

So I don’t do that, but any

material that the patent has

already expired or that is a variety

that has been for many years ago.

Heirlooms, all of those are fair game.

When I moved from my first

property where I established

the orchard, I had to sell it.

And then I bought my next property.

We started from scratch and I was

gonna start with stone fruits again.

But then my wife said, you know what

is one thing that we may want to do

that a lot of people aren’t doing?

And we have tinkered with apples

before we’ve and that was something

that we started doing months

before we left the other property.

So my wife suggested, why

not do it with apples?

And for the most part, because that

would be something more exclusive.

Not a lot of people are doing

it and being smarter than me.

I was just like, okay, fine.

I will just go ahead and do it.

And that’s how we started our own

Apple orchard slash investigation

slash research into everything

that we have developed into today.

So when I grafted multiple.

Varieties into one tree.

I wanted to make sure that I had

pollinating varieties or varieties that

when they wake up around the same time.

So when the bees visit the trees,

they can go from one flower type

to another flower type, and then

the pollen can be exchanged.

That in principle sounds

very straightforward.

For some reason, my experience has

been that the bees don’t like to visit

those flowers, so I become the bee.

So I will take a small stemc cell

brush and then when I know that they

are flowers from different trees that

are coming on, I will go ahead and

move the pollen around and it works.

So it is it ideal?

No, but it’s a way that we can have a

little bit of backup just in case that

you don’t have the pollen exchange that

you would require for having fruit.

So let’s, so we’re starting off

with apples and you’re creating,

you’re putting on these different

cultivars of apples on one tree.

You’re thinking, the

bees aren’t cooperating.

So you go around with a paintbrush,

you dust the little open flowers

and you’re moving the sort of the

pollen from one flower to the next.

Absolutely.

So that’s when you are doing

multi grafted apple trees.

What about stone fruit trees where

you have many different types of

stone fruits that wouldn’t even

cross pollinate with each other?

Like you can’t, you can have one tree

with plums and apricots on it, but those

plums and apricots won’t cross pollinate.

It’s interesting that you say that

because zer Genetics, which is a

company out in California I think

that they are located in Modesto.

They have created different hybrids of

stone fruits by crossing the pollen,

say from an apricot into a plum.

And then they can get either

an apron, they can get a plum

Cot, they can get a flu o.

And depends on the percentages

of the fruit resembling

either one of the parents.

So if it’s more apricot

than plum, it’s an apron.

If it’s about the same,

it will be a plum cot.

If it’s more of the

plum, it will be alu, ot.

It doesn’t always happen, but that’s

what they’re dedicated into doing.

They’re trying to find the best

attributes from different types of fruits.

And then those pollen crosses create

natural hybrids that will enhance

the fruit content of the crops.

And then they will have different

types of flavor profiles.

And I have tasted some of them.

They are amazing.

So it’s really great.

That sounds great.

And so if you have like this, one

of these crosses in your orchard,

It will the pollen from like the,

a apron or whatever the, a plum.

Apricot plum can possibly crosspollinate

with your apricot cultivars.

Yes.

Or with your plum cultivars.

Oh, boy.

Yes.

That’s amazing.

Yep.

Okay.

We have an interesting

question here from Spencer.

I’m listening from Kaysville, ut

Utah, I would like to know what

recommended combos are for multi

grafted horizontal cordon trees.

I would like to graft one row of

apple cultivar and then another row

of a complimentary apple cultivar

that will grow at the same rate.

As my first row, my horizontal cordon

trees will have three or four horizontal

rows, and I’m interested in having one

cultivar on the odd number horizontal

rows and a different cultivar on the

even numbered horizontal roads, any

perfect combos, so that even an odd

rose looks similar in growth rate.

Thanks, Spencer.

Wow.

So basically Spencer is doing

some beautiful, interesting bolier

growing his fruit trees up a flat

two dimensionally against a fence.

He wants to intermesh these two varieties,

but he wants them to blossom at the

same time and grow at the same rate.

Any suggestions?

Okay L aside from the somewhat

complicated schematics one thing

that I could recommend is to make

sure that you become informed of the

varieties that grow in your area.

Because since you live in Utah and you

will get the cold, there’s more likely

records by the county extensions promoted

by the universities that provide the

information to the rest of the state on

what cultivars grow at the same time.

So if you have like different

ones, that’s how you want to do.

In order to ensure that they have the

same growth, they have to be planted in

an area where they’re gonna receive equal

amounts of sunlight, that the ground is

gonna have the same type of composition,

and that the root stock that you’re

using to propagate them is the same.

So the more equal you can create

the conditions for those cultivars.

The uniformity that you can provide,

then it’s gonna work better for

the plants that you have laid out

in your question, saying, that’s

a great answer, saying that.

However, I know that in our orchard we

have, for instance, liberty apple, oh my

gosh, that thing is so vigorous and grows

so quickly compared to, a rusted apple

tree that we have that is just, you could

sit there and watch it for a hundred years

and you’d see maybe an inch of growth.

So I guess you’re right.

It’s really about the research, but

I love how you say the most important

thing is to find out what thrives in

your community that is so important.

Got a couple of other

quick questions here.

One is from John from Toronto.

John says, hi Susan.

It’s John just joined in listening

regarding triggering blooming.

Has our host ever triggered

blooming by scoring the trunk?

Of course, I have to ask.

I have not done it that way, so I’d

probably be afraid of doing that.

But that is something

that is applied in order.

It’s one of the practices that

sometimes gets applied in order to

encourage production from fruit trees.

I haven’t per, I haven’t

personally done it.

The management that I provide is

simply defoliation at the specific

time of the year, and also providing

nutrition that’s going to encourage

fruit production and root stability.

So when I use a fertilizer at ufs, a

fertilizer that’s slightly lower in

nitrogen compared to phosphorus and

potassium, because the phosphorus

and potassium will trigger or help

with the production of flowers

rather than vegetative growth.

So if I get more vegetative growth,

I’m not getting as many flowers.

There’s a competition.

Be between the resources of the tree.

What are we gonna use for

Vegeta vegetative growth?

What are we gonna use

for fruit production?

What are we gonna use as

research for the next year?

So this pie of sorts, it’s getting split

into different parts, but I wanted more

dedicated to one particular mission.

And if it’s gonna be for flowering and

fruit production, then I’m gonna feed

according to what I want the tree to do.

If I want the tree to grow

big, go with nitrogen.

If you want the tree to stay small, but

be a little bit more productive, switch

gears on the nitrogen and go a little

bit more on phosphorus and potassium.

That’s again, a great answer because

I know John has been struggling with

his tree that just doesn’t flower.

It’s a tree, it’s an heirloom,

and he’s just so frustrated.

So maybe he’s using too

much nitrogen, who knows?

It’s awesome.

So John, yeah, I’m sure you’ll get

back to us about that at some point.

We’ve got an email from

Dawn from Michigan.

Hi Susan.

Great subject today, backyard

Orchard culture and multi

graph trees are my favorites.

Thank you, Dawn.

Okay.

Oh, and we have another email here.

Oh, also from John, we’re hearing

back again from John in Toronto.

I, Susan, as your guest ever successfully

hand pollinated an apple Triplo.

Any advice?

Yeah, so it, it’s a great question

and yes, because I have a few

trips in my collection of apples.

Probably the most The most productive

one of them is Bramley Seedling, which

is an apple variety from England.

If you ask any English person,

which is the pie apple that you

want to use, is gonna be bramleys a

beautiful tree, and it is a triploid.

So what happens is that

it’s pollen sterile.

So the pollen due to the number of

chromosomes that it has, is not able

to pollinate itself and it’s not

able to pollinate other varieties.

So you’ll need pollen from a deployed

variety, and that’s probably where the

majority of the apple trees are at.

So you’ll take the pollen safe from a

Coxs orange Pippen, or see granny Smith.

You can take it from Gold Rush, any

variety that is deployed, and then you

can pollinate the flowers of the Brandley.

It will produce fruit and

currently we were successful.

It’s just starting to wake up from

a few weeks ago and we have a few

fruit clusters already in development.

Oh, fantastic.

So back to, we were talking about multi

graft trees and we were talking about

stone fruit trees, and I know that

you do multi graph stone fruit trees.

What types, what type of root stock works,

works best for that purpose in order to

accommodate different types of fruit?

Okay, so in the industry, the one that

happens to be used the most is nemaguard.

So nemaguard is a peach seedling

because peach has great compatibility

with the majority of the stone fruits.

It’s compatible with itself, is compatible

with nectarine, plums and apricots.

So it, it’s very commonly used

for multiple grafted trees.

With my situation, it’s.

Problematic because both properties that

I acquire here in the state of Florida,

they don’t have the sandy soil that is

so famous in most of the households.

I have soil that is compacted that

when it rains in the summertime,

it’s always soupy, it’s always wet.

Petros do not like wet feet.

They will not tolerate

the excessive rainwater.

So if I do have something on nemaguard,

which absolutely I must have, I

will plant it in a raised bed.

But to go to the question, what do I

use because I have soil that is wet, the

plum rootstocks are more adaptable to

be planted in areas where the soil stays

moist for a prolonged period of time.

Things like my Roblan 29 C Mariana 26 24.

But then they don’t have the

compatibility with say, like a peach

or an nectarine that you would like.

So there is one solution.

There is a root stop that

is known as citation.

It was developed in California

probably more than 20, 30 years ago.

The patent on it expired already.

And for plums and apricots, it’s

good on its own, but for peaches

and nectarines, if it rains, it is

susceptible to transmitting viruses

and then the tr the case quickly.

Otherwise, it’s a fantastic rootstock.

So if you live in an area where it’s

not gonna be constantly moist by rain,

so the irrigation can be there, it

likes the irrigation, but it doesn’t

like the water when it remains in

the soil for a long period of time.

So maybe we can take a cutting of

that citation, connect it with.

The plum rootstock, and it can

be connected because citation

is a plum peach hybrid.

So there is plum in the

genetics of the citation.

And then once that connection occurs,

you can graft a peach or nectarine

on top of the citation bridge, and

that’s what’s known as an inter stem.

And then you are able to create a

tree that has the plum root stock

that is resistant to the soil, and it

has the adaptability to connect with

the citation as part of that bridge.

So the citation.

Will impart properties that are positive

without having to mess with the roots.

So it will make it to have bigger fruit.

It will increase the sugar content

and it will be compatible with

the peach and the nectarine.

So that is magical.

Okay.

That’s incredible.

So essentially with this

interest stem, we are having

more than one graft on the tree.

It gives you the flexibility.

My question is, let’s say I want

to create a tree using that system

with an interstem that has five

different types of fruit on it.

Do I, do you know, this spring

or whatever, do I do all

seven grafts at the same time?

I’m like, okay, I’m gonna

assemble a fruit tree.

I’ve got my root stock, and then I’m gonna

graft on the inter interstem and then

I think I’ll graft on something else,

the my rebellion, and then I’m gonna

graft on five different types of fruit.

Can you assemble a tree

all in one shot like that?

Or is this a multi-year project

that you let each graft take?

See what happens, let it grow and

then continue grafting onto it.

I think that if you’re trying to use

the inner stem to do multiple graphs

at the same time, it’ll take you two

years because the first year you’re

going to graft the inter stem as if

it was just a regular scion, and then

you’re gonna let that inter interst

stem grow and develop branches.

So those branches are gonna develop

for a full year, and then when the

next winter comes, then you’re going

to select the branches that you want

to keep, and then you can graph science

onto those branches in order to create

the multicrafted tree that you desired.

And they are great

advantages in doing that.

For example, for folks that are

short on space, having multiple

varieties in one single tree, it’s

going to solve problems of spacing.

It’s also gonna give you.

An extended harvest or what’s known

as successive ripening because you’re

gonna have things that are gonna be

ready at different times of the year.

So instead of getting fruit two to three

weeks at a time, and then that’s it.

You can have a tree that can give

you fruit possibly for months.

So it’s great.

You’re gonna have different varieties

or different types of fruits.

So you can have apricot, you can

have nectarine, you can have peach,

you can have plum, you can have pout

all in one tree, which is fantastic.

So it’s conversation maker of sorts.

So there are many advantages, but

there’s also things to watch out

for when you have multiple grafted

trees, just like with everything.

And when you mention the situation

with the liberty, which grows like

a weed, and then you have the other

apple that grows very little when you

have multiple grafts in the same tree.

One or a few varieties will want

to take over the tree and then

they will shade out the rest.

So when they are growing more vigorously

than the others, is your job to prune

them accordingly, to keep them in

check with the rest of the varieties.

So there isn’t really like a

domination or an overtake of one

variety compared to the rest.

However, in reality, there are times

when you buy a multiple grafted

tree, say from a nursery or from

a maor place, that when it arrives

it will have a few thick branches.

And then a couple of them

will be like CUNY or thin.

And if that is the case, when you’re

planting your tree in the ground, you want

to orient the tree with the section that

has the smaller or the punier branches

facing the south or the southwest.

And the reason you do that is

because you want them to catch up.

And facing in that orientation will

allow them to receive the maximum

solar exposure, so they will get

those nutrients, and then eventually

they will catch up to the other

varieties that are more vigorous.

So those are important things

to watch out for when dealing

with multiple grafted trees.

Something that I’d love to add because

I have a little bit of a pet peeve

for purchased multi graft trees.

What I find is that they’re really not

designed for people to graft the nut

graft to prune these trees correctly.

So if you know how, if you know have

some skills in fruit tree grafting, you

will be able to choose a better tree

or better yet, graft your own tree.

Fruit tree grafting is incredibly

important to keep your tree

healthy and productive.

But if you don’t know how to do it, you

may get a tree and you’re like, oh my

gosh, how do I prune this now so people

can learn Grafting it orchard people.com.

I’ve got courses on it

and articles and stuff.

We have a few quick emails will go through

cuz believe it or not, we’re coming up

to the end of the show, so let’s see.

I know it’s crazy.

I know.

It’s crazy.

It happens just like that.

You’re so interesting.

That’s why.

Okay.

Okay, so Hi Susan and Javier.

I am so impressed by this concept.

I’m sorry if I missed this at

the beginning, but how did Javier

get into this research and work?

And this is thanks from Olivia and your

friends from Fort Ha Spirits in Brooklyn.

Okay.

So quick, how did you get into this?

Just watching videos and just

seeing, wow, I, I wanna have

what they are doing right there.

So I’ll just learn and just watch a few

things, get, some material where you

can practice and practice makes perfect.

Protect yourself at all times.

Grafting knives are sharp, so having

an instrument like, like a cutout

board where if you’re doing insertions

or where you’re doing the cut on a

rootstock so that your hae is protected

in case that your knife slips.

That’s really important.

Make sure that you’re getting

the right instruments.

Sometimes you can get by with

what you have at your house, but

there’s a reason why materials are

specialized because they are designed

to let people take advantage of.

What they’re trying to do with

grafting and the quality is great.

They’re gonna last for a very long time.

So just gonna watch

some videos on YouTube.

Do a little bit of research from local

universities and also from farmers around

the area that might do that type of work.

And the more that you can learn

and gather, you are gonna become

like a more informed consumer

and, enjoy more of what you do.

I really think having, being new to

grafting and I’m so passionate and excited

about it, I think everybody who grows

fruit trees should know how to do it.

Seriously, if you have a fruit tree

in the back in your backyard already,

there is no reason why you shouldn’t

have grafted branches on it with

different types of compatible fruit.

Okay, we’ve got an email here from

John, our buddy John, again in Toronto.

Thanks for the advice on favoring

phosphorus and potassium over

nitrogen to encourage fruiting.

Very helpful.

That’s from John.

Now, let’s see, we’ve

got an email from Oscar.

Hey, Susan.

Oscar from New York here.

Just writing to say hi.

Very interesting show today.

Thank you, Oscar.

And who do we have here?

Elaine writes, aha.

Elaine writes, why don’t you just use

super dwarf, high density planting?

In the case of multiple

Apple, apple varieties.

Good question from Elaine.

So why, rather than grafting,

why don’t you just get a lot of

little super dwarf trees instead?

Okay.

I think that one thing that people

commonly misunderstand about rootstocks

is the actual size of them will they

be like dwarf, semi dwarf or standard.

And one of the things that I learned

from the great Tom Spelman of Dave Wilson

nursery, and it’s absolutely true, both

in practice and in theory, is that you

don’t wanna choose a rootstock because

it’s dwarf, semi dwarf or standard.

You wanna choose your rootstocks

for the adaptability to your

climate and to your soil.

So those are the considerations.

If I choose a dwarf tree, it

might be dwarf, but it might

be susceptible to fire blight.

So I am dedicating all this time.

Getting a dwarf tree in the ground,

couple years it’s producing yay.

And all of a sudden a bad

summer that’s really rainy.

It develops fire blight and

then the trees are decimated

and then I’m crying about it.

I would cry.

So I would rather choose a rootstock and

varieties that are gonna be susceptible

to that fire blight and then I can

control the size myself by bruny.

So that would be per, that

would not get fire blight.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Okay, it’s time for us to

find out who won the contest.

Awesome.

So Gary, are you gonna help us with this?

I am going to help you.

Now what I have Javier, we, I have.

All those names that wrote in into a

little bucket, I’m gonna shake the bucket.

You’ll be able to hear that.

And you tell me when to stop.

And then what I will do is

pull out that piece of paper.

Now we have a studio audience.

They’re very excited about this.

I’m trying to control them,

but we’ll see what happens.

Are you ready?

Okay.

Oh, here we go right now.

All right, let’s pull this guy

out and we will see who this is.

And it looks like the winner

is, Oscar of New York.

It looks like.

Wow.

Down people Down.

Take it easy.

Oscar of New York is

the winner of the prize.

Thank you.

Wow.

That studio audience, I’ll tell you, they

really get excited with these contests.

It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Oh my goodness.

So the prize that Oscar is getting

lucky Oscar, I wish I could

put my own name for this prize.

I want one of these bypass pro pruners.

So it’s a color point

bypass pro pruner from Dr.

Valued at $28 coming

in six vibrant colors.

I would, if I could choose, I would

maybe choose blue or purple or something.

Oh, I can’t have it.

It’s Oscar’s.

Oh and you can’t have it either.

I’m sorry, Jer.

So it’s not ours.

It’s Oscar.

I know you’re crying.

That’s okay.

So we have our winner.

We will reach out to Oscar to get

his address and send him that.

Prize.

So thank you so much, Javier,

for coming on the show.

Like what?

Fun to talk to you.

Great to be here anytime.

Yeah.

And I’d look forward to

checking out your Facebook page.

I’m not on Instagram yet, probably

never will be, but you never know.

It’s okay.

I get very overwhelmed by social media.

But thank you for coming on this show

and we will get you back someday to talk

about your project and how things go.

Fantastic.

I’m looking forward to the opportunity.

All right, so if you want to learn more

about today’s topic and see visuals soon,

in the next few days, I will have the

video version of this show ready for you.

So you’ll be able to see

the two of us chatting.

But not only that, there will be

photographs and little bits of video so

that you can really get a full experience

of the learning that you had in this show.

If you wanna do that, if you wanna see the

video or other episodes you can do, you

can go to Orchard People’s YouTube channel

and find all the videos available there.

Now if you wanna learn how to graph

fruit trees, if you’re ready to

do this, I’m ready to teach you.

Go to orchard people.com,

click on courses.

There is a wonderful course that

I worked on with Steph Roth of

Silver Creek Nursery, and we

will teach you how to do this.

You can do this.

I can do this, we can all do this.

If you want to listen to this podcast

again or download previous episodes,

go to orchard people.com/podcasts.

And that’s all for now.

We’ve got another great

show coming up next month.

I know what the topic is.

It’s gonna be fun and hopefully you will

tune in again next month to the live show.

Thanks for tuning in everybody,

and I’ll see you next time.

Bye for now.